MiltonSeminarJ12008

I know class is over, but I can’t stop mulling over Milton in my mind.  In fact today, throughout my reading of Hebrews 1, I was picturing Paradise Lost. I must say I do enjoy a new perspective on what I read, but will this persist, will Milton color the outlook of everything I read, I wonder? Just a thought. Thank you Dr. Campbell for an enlightening class. Also a thank you to all of my classmates who helped to make this a great summer experience.

I was disappointed with book XI and XII, I felt that perhaps if Michael had shown Adam these horrific things prior to eating the fruit then perhaps it would have prevented the Fall. It would seem to me that Adam would be depressed at the future not uplifted. To see the earth destroyed by flood because man had sunk so low, and knowing it was due to your and your wife’s actions, would be enough to finish off anyone. The redemption of man though somewhat comforting would not be enough to undo all of the horror that went before. The way in which they left Eden seemed too pat. They would have been distraught, not simply shedding a few tears.  I guess I am disappointed with Milton’s wrap up of his Epic. I knew how the story would end because I have read the Bible, but it was  such a hurried conclusion  after the beauty of the story up to the Fall. I wanted something more or a different ending, it was an emotional let down for me, but perhaps I am being too dramatic.

I believe typology to be very important for people to learn how the past relates to the present. However as we discussed in class yesterday, it can become a hinderance when people attempt to over compare. As with the Bible, it can cause one to wonder about the validity of the stories were they simply contrived to support other issues? However, they can’t be false because typology is based on historically accurate data. I believe that if one looks hard enough they will be able to find comparisons with anything they want to. It would  behoove us to not be easily persuaded and to use our own common sense when analyzing typology and analogy.

Madeline’s presentation was eye-opening.  I had not contemplated on how interrelated everything in creation is. I have always felt God was the author of creation, and that it is mysterious and wonderful. However, the detailed image of the root, to stem, to leaves, then flower, its scent into man and man to heaven. The depiction of the symbiotic relationship was powerful. Perhaps it is the experience of reading and studying Milton that has elevated my perceptions to a new level as well.

What can I say; beside it was an eye-opening, very awesome experience! I unfortunately had to leave around 0230, right after book VI. My son, who I drug along with me, also thought it was a “neat” time. He thought that Dr. Campbell should have read the whole thing though, he was impressed with the delivery Dr. Campbell also was able to get him to read with us, quite a major feat- Way to go Dr. Campbell!  He gave you the stamp of “cool”, a major acheivement, as not many people get that label.When reading P.L. out loud I found that it was more comprehensible and thought provoking. Passages popped out that I had not thought much of when reading to myself. I thought that the war in heaven really came alive when read out loud. It was powerful.I wish you were staying Dr. Campbell; I would have hung in all night next year.

Milton’s Sonnet is beautiful and haunting as well as having an acute sense of loss. I could not help but noticing that at least three of his five principles could be applied. He is preoccupied with time in this sonnet in that he is dreaming which places him out of the realm of conventional time and space. It is also evident with the visit of his dead wife the past comes to the present. He describes his wife as being virginal as “washed from spot of child-bed taint”, this would lend to the beginning of their relationship, when they first met. This part of the Sonnet brought to mind Milton’s desire for seeming compatibility and companionship in a marriage which he places above sex. I was struck most by the last line, ” I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night.” I could feel Milton’s frustration and his loss when he wakes at the best, most desired part of his dream and his beloved wife is gone. He is thrust unpleasantly back into the present and reality. It seems to me when he says ” and day brought back my night” as if he perhaps he lay in bed for awhile trying to get his dream back, but was unable to do so, before the daylight arrived.  There seems as if there is a sense of delay in that passage. From my own experience, when I wake up from a good dream I try to go back to it for a few minutes before I either go into another, or just get up. 

I was thoroughly disappointed with Milton after reading today’s chapter in CC. He at first comes across as putting woman on a pedestal on page 180. He vows to celebrate “those in whom both good and faire in one person meet” However,  when he comes out with his divorce tracts to “advocate, religious, civil, and domestic liberty for sober and religious men” he gets angry when there isn’t support for his self-serving views of the doctrines of marriage laid out by God. He attempts to twist the scripture to account for the God’s disapproval of the Pharisees. He claims that marriage was created for the “good of man” and that a marriage that doesn’t fall into his (Milton) ideal of good was therefore not “what God hath joined together”He rails against those who believed divorce was only for abused wives, after all “wasn’t woman created for man, not man for woman?” He goes on to say that God could not have intended man who is the image of God, who was given the inferior woman for his enjoyment, to be stuck with someone (who he, Milton) considers to be inadequate as a wife. He puts forth that man, who was “crown’d” by God, should have the right “to obtain his freedom”. Milton feels marriage is a place to where two people can have great conversations with each other and be happy, to enjoyed dignity and love together. Apparently this means if Milton is happy it is a good marriage, if he isn’t being fulfilled as he feels he should be then he deserves a divorce.It seems Milton’s idea of a virtuous woman is one that fits his lofty ideals. If they don’t then they fall into the category of a Delilah. It frustrates me that a man with such great theories and rich depictions of women and love in his poetry could come out with this , in my mind, contradictory rubbish.

 I was reading my bible this morning (NKJ) 2 Thes Chaptter 2, in which Paul warns  the beleivers not to be tricked into beleiving that Jesus has returned.  He informes them that this will not happen until the “falling away” takes place and the “Man of perdition” (antichrist) is revealed. What interested me most were verses 7-12. In a nutshell The mystery of lawlessness is already at work, and will continue to be so until He God) is taken out of the way (I assume this is until God decides). it is at that time the lawless one will be revealled, this coming of the lawless one will be according to the works of Satan “with all power, sign, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteus deception” He will do these things among “those who perish” (unbeleivers) because they did not receive the “love of the truth that they might be saved”. What struck me most was verse 11-12 ” And for this reasonGod will send them strong delusion, that they should beleive the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not beleive the truth but had pleasures in unrighteousness.” I thought of Milton’s God when I read this passage, and of the arguments of Empson and Fish.

For Empson’s part I thought of  his belief in a wicked God. That would coincide with God’s purposeful deception of the unbeleivers so that would be damned along with Satan, and not given another chance at redemption of their souls.

Then I thought of Fish who felt that through our failures we would eventually see the error of our ways and seek God’s mercy and forgiveness. I thought that perhaps if they were not purposfully deceived by God they might take this opportunity to repent.

However, there is the argument that if they haven’t repented of their immorality up to that point would they ever, and just continue on in their sin? It does have to stop somewhere, and how much time do people need?

It would appear from what Carey is saying the argument of whether Milton’s character is above his God will not be resolved anytime soon. It seems that Milton feels strongly that Satan is real and the embodiment of evil. In that case I believe he would not consciously place Satan in a position higher than God, which would have been blasphemous on any level.  It is what got Satan thrown from Heaven in the first place! There were some who even believed that Milton was on the side of Satan (I have done so much reading I can’t place the source right now), this idea is absurd to anyone who has read anything of Milton’s.  Though I do find his idea, that one should push as far as they can into temptation in order to make an informed choice, treading on dangerous ground. There are some who are not as morally and intellectually strong as Milton and to investigate temptation would surely mean for them to fall. I believe that it is fairly easy for Satan to fool people into believing they have made the right choice. Sin is packaged alluringly, if it wasn’t people would know it was bad and not do it. Satan came to Eve as a beautiful serpent; if he had been ugly she would have known instinctively that he was bad news. This is the faultiness I see in Milton’s idea that everything is made by God therefore it is quite possibly a choice between two goods. If Satan puts forth sin in a pretty package, those of weak moral fiber will choose this “good” choice and feel they are making the right choice. I find it frustrating to see that Man is attempting to say that Isaiah is mistaken in thinking that Satan wanted to rise above God. Isaiah was a prophet of God, and knew what he was talking about. There is a reason Satan was thrown from heaven. It was because he was caught clipping flowers in God’s garden.  There are cases on earth where men attempt to overthrow kings and governments even though the odds are heavily against them. Satan was an angel and was a very powerful and beautiful angel. Is it such a stretch to believe he thought he could overthrow God, if he had convinced other powerful angels to join with him? God had given them free will to choose to love and worship him, or not. Satan chose the later and was forced from heaven. Milton’s portrayal of Satan leads one to have sympathy for him, in this I feel Milton does a disservice to his God when he paints Satan as less than powerful and manipulative than he truly is. In saying that Satan could love Adam and Eve, he embodies him with feelings that would provoke sympathy for him. Humans will want to see good in something that loves them, it is natural. For example: if someone befriends a lion and it licks them, they think the lion likes them so they embrace him, but then the lion eats them. Was the lion showing love, or was it luring the person in for an easy kill?This is of course my take on Milton’s Satan, others may take a different view of things.

I especially like Milton’s argument on page 218 where he says if we regulate printing we must regulate everything. His method of pointing out the ridiculousness of licensing is quite to the point, as well as pointing out how impossible it would be.

I agree with Milton when he says that to remove the instruments of sin will not keep man from sinning. Even the common people who can’t read know how to sin , or are taught how to sin.

Books are books and whether they are “bad” book or “good” books. A person will take what they want from them. Wayne C. Boothe echos Milton in the aforementioned and that books should not be censored. To do so would cramp and stifle a writers creative flow.

I like the comparison of truth to the streaming fountain.  If there isn’t a continuous inflowing of new ideas and honesty then our minds would become stagnant and bogged down . I had not heard the story of truth being torn apart and thrown to the four winds, and that her friends are still looking for her.  That WE are still looking for truth but will not be wholly successful until His second coming. I think too that truth is strong and it will prevail against all in the end.  People seek truth in everything, if they feel they haven’t found it , or it is being held from them , they will continue to pursue it.